Re: What's bad in Java

Daniel Pitts a écrit :
What? I've seen some VERY well written and highly responsive desktop applications, despite the fact that Java's focus has shifted to server-side and enterprise technology.

Jack wrote:
Well you can't.

Yes, you can, and people do.

The starting of the jvm [sci] is a major drawback for any java [sic] desktop software. And then Swing is pretty slow anyway. I don't say that

Swing is not "pretty slow" unless you code it so. I've seen plenty of responsive Swing apps.

if you spent 1 week on each dialog with a profiler, and with "acid test" data, you can't fix them, but it's just too much effort, wich are not needed in win32 C API for example. I'm talking about speed, and don't say that a DefaultListModel is easier to use than a callback function.

Speed is just fine in Swing.

Daniel Pitts a écrit :
Actually, trolling is rejecting a well thought-out argument because "its dumb". What Lew is doing is providing counter examples to your claims.

Jack wrote:
Not really.

Actually, yes, really.

You want rational point, but you won't listen to them, you just won't admit them, you want to fight the evidence.
You haven't made any rational points. You've summarized what points you'd like to make, but haven't proven or explained them.

I can't prove anything to you because i don't have a measures. I just

You don't have measures, but you claim "slowness". You need *evidence*.

just Java app every day, and each time i [sic] switch to a big C app, like Word, or any Office, i [sic] find them a lot more "fluid" than any Java app i've [sic] used.

That is not necessarily slowness at fault, but design. You have not identified the source of slowness in these apps, yet you blame the language.

You need *evidence*.

For the other 99% of applications, Java works just fine.

Where does the 99 come from ?

Where do your so-called "facts" come from?

Well there must be some 50/50 method to handle memory.

C# gives you a choice.

Lew wrote:
What does "dumb" mean?

You keep using that word, but give no definition. "Dumb" is not an engineering assessment, and if you meant what you said about hoping that Java fixes your complaints, you need to give *concrete* descriptions that can be fixed. No one can fix "dumb".

Jack wrote:
Do i need to find the exact word to make my point ?

Daniel Pitts a écrit :
Actually, that's considered the crux of a good argument. Yes. You do need to find the words to make your point.

Absolutely. How can anyone respond to such vague and untestable assertions as, "It's dumb"?

Daniel Pitts a écrit :
Its called the uniform access principle.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_access_principle>

I personally would like a more succinct syntax to create accessors and mutators. However, even when I code in C++, I don't access the C++ equivalent of fields directly.

Jack wrote:
You seems to agree.

He doesn't seem to agree with you, though.

Lew wrote:
Java does not require you to write accessors, so don't, if you hate them that much.

Jack wrote:
Take a car and push it, if you don't like the oil industry. Using half the language means:
1/ You code alone
2/ You use the wrong language

Daniel Pitts a écrit :
Indeed. Although thats a straw-man argument:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man>

Jack wrote:
Thanks, you page made me smile.

It was *supposed* to make you think. Obviously you completely missed the point.

Your argument did not countervail mine. Gasoline is essential to the operation of an automobile. Accessors and mutators are not defined by the Java language; they are not essential to the language. A better argument would be, "Take a bicycle and pedal it."

Jack wrote:
Unspoken is true, but i [sic] wanted to avoid "i [sic] think that" followed by "not me". I'm pretty sure you may find drawbacks too, but you want me to list them precisely, which i [sic] won't.

Because you cannot. If you were to list them precisely, you'd find they are devoid of merit and unsubstantiable. That's why you will support them with neither facts nor logic, just obstinacy.

Jack wrote:
No because i don't need a solution. I would like a new Java without these problems.

You have not stated any problems with Java, or the few that you did state actually do not exist. You will not get a "new Java" as you want it. Switch languages.

Lew said:
There are many people who object to things they do not understand. It is not always the fault of the thing. Pointing to a neighbor who says, "I hate that, too. It's dumb!" doesn't make it so. Logic and reason, please.

Jack wrote:
Every rational thought call another rational thought wich claim the opposite, so i [sic] won't do it again (like for the Java slowness point).

It wouldn't be "again" because you haven't done it yet.

Jack wrote:
I just feel that Java application are slower, in average. I might start a thesis, putting some time measure on 5 Java application, and 5 C application, but it would be useless since it's obvious.

It is not obvious, and it is not true. That's what would make it useless: it would disprove your thesis.

Jack wrote:
You are exactly right. Vista is dumb because it tries to do too much, and is too slow, for an operating system. The metaphore is excellent.

What does "dumb" mean?

Jack:
Anyway, thank you for answering. But it seems we won't agree on anything.

Because you are mistaken and we aren't.

Jack:
Well i [sic] thank Lew for his reading, but i [sic] disagree with him.

Yet you refuse to substantiate your position with any facts or logic, saying instead, "i [sic] won't".

Jack:
That would start a troll, so i [sic] won't. I was hopping to see another guy who would have said "i [sic] agree with you, i've [sic] changed from Java to this better but unknow language called XXX 5 years ago".

Except that you trolled a Java group, so you knew ahead of time that totally was not going to happen.

Besides, your unsubstantiated points weren't correct, so of course you aren't going to get that reaction.

--
Lew
.

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