Re: Java Soft-Real-Time Processor (JSRTProc)

Lew wrote:
Larry K. Wollensham wrote:
Try this on for size: "there's safety in numbers". In a crowd, your odds of getting singled out for special attention are minimal compared to if you stand alone.

It may not improve his odds if he is hauled into court, but it may well improve his odds of not getting hauled into court to begin with.

So you're saying it's all right to infringe as long as you don't get caught.

I guess that also applies to plagiarism, shoplifting, armed robbery, murder, ...

What a ridiculous argument. Nobody is plotting to defraud Sun or deceive people into thinking a product is endorsed by (or even made by) Sun that is not. We're talking a list of Sourceforge projects here, not a bunch of street ruffians. I wonder how many of those projects' developers would find your remarks here borderline-libelous. After all you basically likened them all to murderers...

However, it seems fairly ridiculous that we not be permitted to describe our Java class libraries, frameworks, and so forth as being Java ones. Having class libraries and similarly named "The Java Foobar Whatsit" and the like only benefits Sun -- people can easily find third-party Java tools that add value to Java, it's easy to see how large and thriving the ecosystem around Java is with a simple Google search, and the like. Programmers looking for Java libraries and the like can also find them much more easily if they all tend to have "Java" in their names. And traditionally, it is not misuse of a trademark to use it in such a manner. It's very much like marketing a "PC soundcard" at a time when IBM still sold computers under the brand name "IBM PC". And plenty of that went on without a peep of complaint from IBM.

There's a difference between saying that something is made for Java (TM) systems and using "Java" in the name of the product.

I know that, but it is also the case that there's a difference between infringing a trademark and using it. Product names often reference other product names with which they interoperate. If they do different things it is not particularly considered abnormal or any sort of "stealing" by most.

Calling your own new programming language something with "Java" in the name would obviously infringe. (The existence of Javascript, which seems to be trying to differentiate itself by using the name ECMAScript now, notwithstanding.)

Calling a library -- a Java library -- something with "Java" in the name seems to be quite commonly done without complaints from Sun and without seeming to me to be infringing. (Though, IANAL.)

Also, the presence of numerous Sourceforge projects that apparently
have not been attacked suggests

Evidenced or speculation?

The evidence was in the previous post, but you snipped it.

that either Sun doesn't care to enforce those terms against obviously harmless targets, or else Sun's permission is easy enough to get that the OP should have no trouble obtaining it himself.

That might be true. Or it might not. What are the facts?

The OP should find out. Someone suggested he call a lawyer. I more or less suggested he find out what Sun's in-practise policy tends to be (the Sourceforge listing indicates strongly that this differs from the policy stated on one of their web pages).

But, IANAL, so take all of this with a grain of salt. The best advice in this thread was the one suggesting the OP consult with a lawyer in his own part of the world.


Really, we shouldn't have to consult lawyers, possibly at significant expense, before we can innovate and introduce new and possibly useful products into the world that add value, far from doing damage, to the existing ones. But such is the world we live in that right now we often do have to consult lawyers.

I don't feel the need to consult a lawyer if I do not intend to use "Java" as part of my product name. I read the same information Arne quoted, and based on that I feel that I understand how to avoid infringement.

Oh, do you? Your project name might contain any number of other companies' trademarks, without your awareness. It might run afoul of a software patent. Who knows?

You seem much more worried that Sun will sue over using "Java" in the name of a Java-related product than that some other company might sue over the project name mentioning "real time processor", which might well be trademarked by someone, or "soft real-time", or that someone might even have gotten a patent on doing what he's described it as doing.

I also have the feeling you might be more concerned with flaming people or scoring points in some way than you are with carrying out a debate on the merits. The ridiculous hyperbole at the start of your latest post, and your general tone, suggest this to me. I hope that this turns out not to actually be the case. We all sometimes say things that on a sober second look turn out not to be all that sensible or helpful.

(Although I can't recall ever myself implying that a large number of Sourceforge developers in good standing are doing something that's tantamount to murder. In fact, previously I can't recall ever hearing anything quite like that from any non-Microsoft source.)

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