Re: Programming languages for the very young

From: Mark A. Washburn (Reply7471859353_at_wmconnect.com)
Date: 01/27/04 

Date: 26 Jan 2004 19:24:27 -0800

"Julian V. Noble" <jvn@nowhere.virginia.edu> wrote in message news:<4015A531.8179BB21@nowhere.virginia.edu>...
> m-coughlin wrote:
> >
> > "Mark A. Washburn" wrote:
> > >
> > > Joe Marshall <prunesquallor@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > <snip>
> > > > Certainly there are many computer whizzes that could use a
> > > > little help with their English, but I think there are as many
> > > > English majors who would benefit from a computer science
> > > > course (*not* a computer literacy course, but a real
> > > > programming course). Writing programs is a great way to
> > > > learn critical thinking.
> > >
> > > As critical thinking is for writing good programs.
> > >
> > > Currently my academic recommendation for
> > > "Introduction to Programming" focuses on a
> > > single language ... Forth ...; And continues thru
> > > advanced programming. With Forth as a starting focus
> > > for learning programming, many directions for opportunities
> > > in /critical thinking/ are opened simultaneously;
> > > from the lowest levels of assembler and assembly language
> > > programming thru the highest levels of problem solving,
> > > in general, and, more specifically, including structured
> > > programming, functional programming, object oriented design
> > > and language compiler design ( ANSI Forth is a nearly ideal
> > > prototyping tool for language design ).
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > There are many good reasons for using Forth. There is one
> > overwhelming reason for not using it, especially for new or very
> > young computer students. There is little useful training
> > material. There is much information on Forth for computer
> > hackers -- those people who know a lot about computers already,
> > can reverse engineer code and remember cryptic abbreviations.
> > Experts in other languages, such as Scheme, Java, Logo, and even
> > C and C++, go out of their way to write beginners books and
> > these can be found easily. The only such books on Forth have to
> > be ordered online. This was not always the case. Twenty years
> > ago you could go into a bookstore and find the best book on
> > programming was "Starting Forth" by Leo Brodie. Nowadays Forth
> > programmers regret the unavailability of such a book on Forth,
> > but they do not recognize this as the absolute disaster it is.
> >
> > Forth is a powerful language that enables individuals to
> > write and publish their own versions of program development
> > systems. But these are almost always beta versions needing
> > documentation. No Forth programmer has ever made a package that
> > could be used in the lower grades to teach children or even (a
> > much harder job) to teach elementary school teachers something
> > about programming. It could be done, but there is no Forth
> > programmer who seems to be interested. It would require a
> > complete change of emphasis, from writing creative code for
> > machines to writing clear literature for human beings.
> >
> > --
> > Michael Coughlin m-coughlin@comcast.net Cambridge, MA USA
>
> Well, Mike, there is a problem here, of the chicken/egg variety.
> Because major corporations push C, C++, C#, Java, etc. there are
> publishers willing to risk publishing introductory texts for
> those languages (as well as others favored by the academic community,
> such as Python, Perl, et al.).
>
> But Prentice-Hall did not keep "Starting Forth" or "Thinking Forth"
> in print, despite the demonstrated excellence of both books as well
> as pretty good sales.
>
> Kelly & Spies's book, "Forth: a text and reference" was also around
> for a while, but CS departments showed little interest in giving
> courses in Forth. At this U., we had some engineering courses that
> referenced Forth, a course in instrumentation taught by Kelly (for
> a while), and a course in numerical methods where I used Forth in
> front of my classes (admittedly with a FORTRAN-ish front end) so
> I could compose programs, debug them, and run them, before the stu-
> dents' very eyes. I could not insist that they do their HW in Forth,
> however, since it wasn't taught as a language. In fact I had to learn
> some C so I could understand and grade their HW. Only a few of the
> many students who took PHYS 551 (and saw me do amazing things in
> front of the class in real time) took the time to try Forth. The
> attitude of the CS department was, shall we say, not conducive
> to motivating the average student to learn such an off-beat language.
>
> MIT is a wonderful place--it must be to offer a course in Structure
> and Interpretation of Computer Programs, using the book by Abelson &
> Sussman, with Scheme as the illustration language. (I am pleased to
> see that my alma mater, Caltech, offers a similar course.) Most CS
> intro courses in the US employ C or C++, although some use Java and a
> few diehards still feature Pascal. AFIK none use Basic, and even
> fewer use Forth.
>
> So how is a publisher to find a market for intro course materials
> in Forth? Perhaps if some organization pushed it a bit ...
>
> Actually, the tutorials available on the Web, including (blush)
> my own, are perfectly adequate to teach an intro course. And
> they are free. What one lacks is a coherent set of exercises
> and problems. Someone --perhaps someone who wants to see a course
> taught-- should write a set of exercises. I leave the task of doing
> so as an, ahem, exercise. ;-)
>
> --
> Julian V. Noble
> Professor Emeritus of Physics
> jvn@lessspamformother.virginia.edu
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/~jvn/
>
> "God is not willing to do everything and thereby take away
> our free will and that share of glory that rightfully belongs
> to us." -- N. Machiavelli, "The Prince".

I suggest, "Teach Yourself Scheme in Fixnum Days" by Dorai Sitaram,
as an example CORE format. Adding a floating point auxillary processor
addendum for a little FLOAT extra credit. :)

Mark

--- Joke-Of-The-Day ---

You are the Government, however, the Government is me.
Don't believe. That wins.

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