Re: Sentience

From: André Thieme (address.good.until.2004.jun.05_at_justmail.de)
Date: 04/17/04 

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 03:58:04 +0200

Coby Beck wrote:

>>The universe has derterministic and random components. So I personally
>>think that our brain also follows these patterns. And I see no room for
>>a free will. The molecules of our brains have to follow some physical
>>laws for their movement and this way determine to some degree of what
>>can happen next. From this side we can't have a free will. Having one
>>would mean that we can force some molecules to go into specific positions.
>
>
> I can do that.

Where does the energy come from to do that?
What is it that enables our brains to act completely different (not
following the "laws of nature") than the rest of the universe?

>>In my opinion [manipulating molecules] is not possible. If we could
>>do it there would be some patterns in the new molecule movement
>
> I see a pattern. I read your post and suddenly desire another sip of coffee
> and then all the molecules in my arm move together and bring the mug up to
> my mouth. Isn't that enough to convince you?

Nope, because, if you see a pattern it means that (if you know the
pattern well enough (which is not possible because this issue is too
complex (which does not mean that magic is involved))) your behaviour
was predictable. At least a billionths of a second before you took your
coffee it was already certain that you will take it. Lets call it state
X of your brain. A billionths of a second before it was certain that in
a billionths of a second later your brain will be in state X, etc...
Only because there are too many factors (which makes a calculation
impossible) there is still no need for an area inside the universe (the
inner parts of our heads) that does not work like the outer part of this
area, at least I don't see why it should be this way.
Of course, when looking at the issue of a free will from a macroscopic
point of view then we have one. Anyway, if we go deeper and deeper and
look more into it, then I personally am not convinced anymore, that we
really have the ability to do "magic". Magic here means do things which
should be impossible, for example forcing some billions of molecules
into some specific states by creating energy out of nothing and using it.

> Honestly, I enjoy as much as the next guy philisophical discussions about
> "fate" and "free will" but trying to scientifically reason away your own
> ability to think and to chose is madness.

My arguments are much, but not scientific. However, for me they sound
very logical. I see little building tools from which the universe is
made up. Like some very basic (and orthogonal) functionality like Lisp
offers. It is easy to understand them as a single concept. And when we
start to build some complex structures by combining these basic (small)
concepts we get something more complex which is still easy to understand.
I see the smallest biological organisms and their highly algorithmical
behaviour, so that no scientists says they think. So if there are only
very small life forms, they can't think and therefore have no free will.

Now the brain (the Lisp program) becomes bigger and bigger and our short
time memory can no longer hold all necessary information about the issue
at one time - things starting to look more complex.
If someone would look at a Lisp application which counts maybe 700
trillion lines of code it would surely not be an easy task to understand
it.

Perhaps my thoughts about free will have an emotional nature. I want
that "real" artificial intelligence is possible and therefore create my
own ideas about how the mind works and put it in a way how I like it
more, just to feel better. If we really have a free will, then I see not
many chances to transfer it to a computer.
Anyway, I am very convinced that this is possible.

André 

--

Relevant Pages

  • Re: The structure of a self-conscious mind
    ... this exact same trick is happening to you when you talk about the ... > pattern which our brain has locked on to. ... Molecules are also patterns, ...
    (comp.ai.philosophy)
  • Re: consciousness
    ... brain have direct contact with other parts of the brain. ... Replacing the ghost with a cluster of neurons does ... pattern detectors firing. ...
    (comp.ai.philosophy)
  • Re: Sentience
    ... If it is always certain where the molecules will ... to influence the flow of molecules in our brain, ... the molecules in our brain into specific states we need energy to do so. ... some ultra intelligent computers exist there are ways to come closer to ...
    (comp.lang.lisp)
  • Re: Gould vs. Dawkins
    ... That "thought" is a pattern of chemical/electrical ... signals in your brain. ... Answer: the pattern the chemicals ... overwhelming in neuroscience nowadays." ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Gould vs. Dawkins
    ... That "thought" is a pattern of chemical/electrical ... signals in your brain. ... pattern of chemical/electrical signals in your brain" is not what I ... Answer: the pattern the chemicals ...
    (talk.origins)