Re: Lisp in a Box

From: Jeff Dalton (jeff_at_todday.inf.ed.ac.uk)
Date: 04/24/04 

Date: 24 Apr 2004 16:38:34 +0100

Cameron MacKinnon <cmackin+nn@clearspot.net> writes:

> Edi Weitz wrote:

> > If a
> > prospective Lisp programmer can't be bothered to read a webpage,
> > download, install, and configure a compiler and an IDE on his platform
> > of choice

Wait just a minute there.

Configuration sucks. (Installers suck too.)

I have been using Lisp for a long time, and I have never
wanted to configure a compiler and IDE before I could use it.

I don't configure Java before I use it.

And usually I haven't had to configure a Lisp either.

Back when I used Lucid CL, I just read it off a tape and hey presto it
worked. Certain other CLs made me do some configuration, and I always
found it annoying.

Sure, when I compiled a Lisp from source, I might have to
start with something like "make configure", but usually
even that didn't require answering any questions.

> > and instead insists on getting a self-booting CD or a
> > one-click-no-brainer setup.exe he doesn't look like a worthy goal to
> > me anyway.

I also hate installers. What do they do? I don't want some
random program messing with arbitrary parts of my machine.

> What makes you think that investigating a language whose advocates
> can't even get their act together well enough to create a one file
> install package would look like a worthy goal to an outsider?

What makes you think these "outsiders" think that way?

Where did this mania for "installers" come from?

> You make it sound like configuring emacs and your-lisp-here is easy,
> even for someone who has used neither.

Good point.

> If your goal is to keep idiots out of the Lisp community by keeping
> the barriers to entry high, fine. But don't think that you won't also
> be keeping out smart people who would have become valuable
> contributors, but for whom life is too short to spend reading
> installation instructions.

Another good one.

However, to avoid the installer nightmare, simple installation
instructions are a price worth paying.

There are quite a few systems that give you a tar or zip
file that you unpack somewhere, and then you can run
right away in that dir or copy (or link to) a couple
of files, or put a dir in a path, if you want to be able
to use it from other dirs easily.

For something Java the instructions might just be: put this .jar file
somewhere, then click on it or say "java -jar that.jar".

No configuration: it works out of the box.

No evil installer putting files all over the place and doing
who knows what else and leaving a mess when if it goes wrong.

> Self contained Knoppix CDs are wonderful emergency toolkits. Boot the
> afflicted machine, and you can bring a complete UNIX toolkit to bear
> on stubborn, misconfigured operating systems or application software
> (or sniff out the cheat codes in videogames :-) ). And the lusers
> watching in awe are usually quite impressed at a complete, self
> contained portable OS with GUI running from a CD.

Ok, that sounds good.

But this doesn't:

> A Lisp CD won't have
> quite the same audience, but don't underestimate the persuasiveness
> and utility of a slick environment that boots up on anything with an
> x86 processor and a CD drive.

Boots up???? With what OS?

I would keep anything like that well away from any machine I
cared anything about.

-- jd

Relevant Pages

  • Re: How to create a standalone GNU/Linux binary using SBCL?
    ... JB>> a) He has to install SBCL, or CMUCL, or whatever. ... CS> I guess he won't accept any Java programs, or Ruby programs, ... Mail a lisp core to somebody who has never used Lisp, ... CS> so poor that installers don't exist or are too inconvenient to use? ...
    (comp.lang.lisp)
  • Re: The Next Move in Programming
    ... The Lisp Way is to work ... I wager that with a less friendly compiler I would spot opportunities ... assume Kenny had been at it again and reach for the tar straight away. ... > Java with Eclipse as my IDE, I'd just back out changes using the IDE and it ...
    (comp.lang.lisp)
  • Re: The Next Move in Programming
    ... > compiler tell me all the places that are now broken. ... API changes in Java and C++ are usually overload and or name changes. ... > Java with Eclipse as my IDE, I'd just back out changes using the IDE and it ... is there a good IDE for Lisp with refactoring ...
    (comp.lang.lisp)
  • Re: From VC6 to .NET 2 questions
    ... >>>would require some previously unneeded files, (dlls, framework and so on). ... >Why do you insist on talking about installers? ... control of your app and not depending on a magic fairy. ... So the fact that a new compiler may or may not require different files ...
    (microsoft.public.vc.mfc)
  • Re: From VC6 to .NET 2 questions
    ... >> MFC, and MFC has ... OK, if you want to be "in control" of your application, it means that you are going to ... product as the c/c++ compiler, resource compiler, and linker. ... terms just why you trust all these other tools and don't trust installers? ...
    (microsoft.public.vc.mfc)