Re: dot meaning

From: Harald Hanche-Olsen (hanche_at_math.ntnu.no)
Date: 12/04/04

  • Next message: Nicolas Neuss: "Re: Ordering within maphash" 
    Date: 04 Dec 2004 13:34:06 +0100

    + Duane Rettig <duane@franz.com>:

    | Harald Hanche-Olsen <hanche@math.ntnu.no> writes:
    |
    | > + Duane Rettig <duane@franz.com>:
    | >
    | > | Harald Hanche-Olsen <hanche@math.ntnu.no> writes:
    | > |
    | > Now, I teach mathematics, not computer science - so it may well be
    | > that my intuitions about what will confuse newbies are off the mark.
    |
    | As a mathematics teacher, how much Greek do you teach your students
    | before you dive into concepts using their letters?

    None at all.

    | > | The phrase "the symbol 'foo" as used above is unambiguous and
    | > | should present no problem to readers, since the form (quote foo)
    | > | is obviously not a symbol unless evaluated.
    | >
    | > Absolutely. At least, among experienced Lisp users, it is so.
    |
    | It was not a problem to me when I was an inexperienced Lisp user,
    | either.

    Lucky you. Actually, I cannot remember if this was a problem to me.
    What I do remember is that I suffered lots of confusion and
    misconceptions in the beginning. In particular, I used to worry a lot
    (needlessly, as I later found out) about whether or not stuff got
    evaluated when I wanted it to.

    | > | Evaluation times are always confusing. My belief is that it is
    | > | better to be exposed to as many of these styles as possible, for
    | > | practice, in order to understand the power of eval and quote -
    | >
    | > All in good time, yes. But surely not at the very beginning of the
    | > learning process?
    |
    | Not necessarily how to distinguish, but at least the (correct)
    | terminology shouldn't be called to question - that is definitely
    | a way to confuse a newbie with detail he is not ready to handle.

    On the one hand, I still don't see "the symbol 'foo" as /correct/. To
    me, it is the sort of (strictly speaking) incorrect language which
    experienced people use for the sake of brevity, but can be confusing
    to beginners. (But still it grates on my nerves in the same way
    incorrect grammar does - it distracts from the real content of the
    text, and so is better avoided.)

    On the other hand, it is true that we probably confuse the newbie with
    this sort of discussion. But that's usenet for you - there is no
    private room where we can withdraw and discuss the finer points of
    pedagogy without confusing the students.

    (And on the gripping hand, it is probably pointless to go on and on
    discussing this point, so I'll stop here.)

    | And as I recall, you didn't just call it into question; you labelled
    | it as wrong.

    Maybe I came on too strong, but I think it is better to state opinions
    clearly than to be wishy-washy. This way, the issues get out where
    they can be examined and viewpoints revised. I have learned something
    from our discussion, not about Lisp but about how to talk about Lisp,
    which is also important. 

    -- 
* Harald Hanche-Olsen     <URL:http://www.math.ntnu.no/~hanche/>
- Debating gives most of us much more psychological satisfaction
  than thinking does: but it deprives us of whatever chance there is
  of getting closer to the truth.  -- C.P. Snow
  • Next message: Nicolas Neuss: "Re: Ordering within maphash"

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