Troll-o-Matic

Dear Lispniks,

under the impression of this thread and the
vivacious response of this post, I've started
to tinker with a "Readers Digest of arguing over
non-technical Lisp-issues". This document is
supposed to save bandwidth, calories and nerves
in the future. Imagine aksing the next "troll"
not to go and boil his head, but to point him
to the "Readers Digest", tell him to read a certain
section and come back if he feels that his
question or statement is not covered comprehensively
in the document. The document is not FAQ because
it does not give a definite answer but explains
points and counterpoints. Thus it is more like
a wikipedia-entry on controversial issues like
"intelligent design". I will try to make the
rendering of explanations as unbiased as possible.

Ideas and suggestions are always welcome, my
email address is tinman31337@xxxxxxxxxx

Although I've checked the web for a "Trolling
Guide to c.l.l." I've not found any, and several
people in this thread have expressed their
frustration over lack of such a document.
The document might also contain a brief guide to
civilized arguing for c.l.l.-participants. I think
becoming worked up over statements like "Lisp
sucks dead maggots thru a straw" is understandable,
but the heat over observations like "perl has
a single, canonical implementation, so I dare
speculate that..." is not. The fact that Peter Seibel's
Gardeners project exists is an indication that
not everybody is a happy camper, and rightly so.
Even newbies and outsiders should be free to
be interested in "issues". Treating these
"issues" like the old, demented grandma in the
basement does not help anybody. However, rejoice!
With a comprehensive digest of disputable issues
your life on c.l.l. and dealing with newbie
posts will become much easier!

One problem I see here is feedback. As the past
has shown, putting a document somewhere on
the web and pointing there from a c.l.l.-post
is not effective because virtually nobody was
interested in following the link. Was it
because a page on angelfire is considered
totally low-class and a reason for distrust,
perhaps? Feedback is important, but how can
I get any?

There are a lot of dangling interesting subthreads
from many appearantly well-informed and bright people
here, but I won't have much time to follow up to
many of those in the next days, and apologize for
this. I will try to work thru the backlogs
beginning next week, so please be patient.

Anyways, here is a brief /introduction/ to the
Troll-Reader's-Digest:

Introduction

Lisp is an interesting language with a long tradition and a devoted user-base. If you are new to comp.lang.lisp you might not only
have purely technical questions, but also questions like:

* Why doesn't Lisp have wide industry acceptance, despite its utter coolness?
* Why is it more difficult to use socket-, threading- or webframeworks in Lisp than in perl, python or PHP?
* Wouldn't it be better for Common Lisp to have a benevolent dictator like python instead of a standard and several implementations?

Be aware that such questions might look innocent and benign to you, but there are many such questions that can enrage participants on comp.lang.lisp and are thus guaranteed to instigate a flamewar, with the result that you might be tainted as a troll. Be also aware that in some cases even the vindicability of statements like "Lisp's fragmentation is a problem because..." is up to dispute and might put you into the middle of a flamewar. In other words, even the legitimacy of such questions is discussed frequently on c.l.l. If you feel tempted to share your musings on the nature of Lisp or what you think are its handicaps in some way or other on c.l.l., please read on. This document is a sort of Reader's Digest to flamewars on non-technical topics from arguments on c.l.l. in the past. If you plan to ask non-technical questions on c.l.l. you should make sure that your question, point of view or observation is new and original, or, at least not covered in this document.

This document is *not* a FAQ in the conventional sense of the term. It does not answer questions in a definite way. It is more of a guide to prominent disputes, some of them have been with Lisp for a very long time. Various points and counterpoints have made it into Lisp's folklore, thus bringing up the same issues over and over again on c.l.l. is frustrating for veteran lispniks, even if you trigger an avalanche of flames in good faith. You can consider knowing this folklore of arguing as an important part of being a real lispnik.
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Lisps popularity
    ... Why do I always end up arguing ... > with everyone when I mention Lisp? ... In the land of the blind, ...
    (comp.lang.lisp)
  • Re: Lisps popularity
    ... Why do I always end up arguing ... > with everyone when I mention Lisp? ... yet no one ever listens. ... Do not advocate it unless want ...
    (comp.lang.lisp)