Re: Interview with Samantha Kleinberg on CL-GODB, Common Lisp & Bioinformatics


Hello, Robert,

The intention of my remarks is not to offend, but to communicate the
truth to which few people want to listen because it disturbs them too
much. Perhaps people need to be disturbed, perhaps pacifism and
anarchism and Christianity do disturb people, but it is not my
intention to disturb. It seems, though, to be an unavoidable result of
telling the truth.

So, I am not happy, and in fact am saddened, if you were offended. To
offend was not and is not my design. Yours or anyone else's real or
imagined offence, however, is not a good enough reason to refuse to
speak the truth about something that is in the process of destroying
the world while we watch. On the other hand, this is a Lisp forum, and
so I do not intend to pursue this conversation further than may be
required to clarify my remarks.


Robert Uhl <eadmund42@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

David Trudgett <wpower@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

Too bad it's in bioinformatics, though... an interesting subject to be
sure, but wherever there is bioinformatics there is a DARPA or other
.mil name not too far away. But hey, we shouldn't worry about that!
It's not as if anyone in power thinks the world could do with a good
culling.

It's not as if DARPA didn't directly contribute to the development of
the Internet or anything...

If the development of Internet technology cost a single human life
(and we're not talking about accidents here) then it cost too much,
didn't it? Or do you disagree?

Technology is a two-edged sword, but technologists often forget and
like to forget the evil applications of their work that can be easily
foreseen. With Einstein and others, it was the atomic bomb ("We have
known sin"). Today, it is biotechnology and genetic engineering that
is possibly the major technological threat we are facing; and there is
the real possibility of bioweapons wiping out much or perhaps even all
of humanity. There is also, of course, the ongoing nuclear threat, and
a possible emerging nanotechnology threat. And the danger of these are
all much higher than the average person is willing to believe, because
the average person cannot comprehend how people in power think, that
human beings to them are just numbers, costs and benefits, a bovine
herd to be used, amused, controlled and culled as the elite see fit.

None of that even touches upon other major perils we face this
century, such as global environmental collapse, climate change, and so
on, which are also helped along by technology, institutionalised
greed, and rapid population growth. One's conclusion would have to be
that civilisation won't survive this century if the situation is
objectively assessed, and the survival of humanity itself is touch and
go. What would a person in power be considering doing if they knew
these facts, as they undoubtedly do? Hint: they have been doing it
since at least September 11, 2001. And we ain't seen nothing yet. Why
has Halliburton just been awarded a contract to build internment camps
in the U.S.? Oh, yes, they are for illegal immigrants, of course... or
perhaps, "to support the rapid development of new programs." [1] I
guess it's not important...


[1] http://halliburton.com/default/main/halliburton/eng/news/source_files/news.jsp?newsurl=/default/main/halliburton/eng/news/source_files/press_release/2006/kbrnws_012406.html



I find your anti-military remarks and .sig offensive;

The sig contained a quotation of something Stan Goff is reported, in a
March 2005 newspaper article, to have said; to wit:

Many young soldiers enter military service having bought the whole
story about the US military as some liberatory force, and the
discovery of its true nature creates a traumatic sense of
dislocation and betrayal.

Stan Goff is a retired professional murderer who served in what is
called the U.S. Special Forces, so I imagine he might know what he is
talking about. He might also be spinning us a line for reasons to
which only he is privy. But I don't think so. In particular, one has
to note that he was talking about "many young soldiers" and not all of
them or even most of them. That is part of what makes the statement
ring true; I believe that half or more soldiers enter military service
for self-serving reasons that have nothing to do with "God and
country", and that most of these would have no reason to feel upset
about discovering the true nature of the military; some might even be
happy about it (in fact, I'm sure of it). So, if Stan had said 'most'
instead of 'many' I would have immediately known he was trying to put
one over.

On the balance of it, then, considering also what I already know of
the nature of the military as told by those with the insight, courage
and honesty to tell it as it is, I am reasonably persuaded that Stan
Goff is spot on with this particular assertion. Therefore, what he
said is most likely the truth by a reasonable standard of judgement.

So, if you are offended by that sig, then you are offended by the
truth, and there is nothing that I can do about that.



one of my brothers is a naval officer, as is his wife; another
brother has enlisted in the Marine Corps; my father was a naval
officer; his father (my grandfather) was a sailor in the Second
World War; his brother (my great-uncle) was a Marine who died on Iwo
Jima; his father (my great-grandfather) was an Army officer in the
Great War; his father was a soldier in the Civil War.

Nothing that I wrote referred to relatives of yours and you shouldn't
take it personally. I am certain that a percentage of military
personnel are sufficiently brainwashed to believe in what they are
doing. I am certain that many of them know they are no more than paid
murderers and love it. I am certain that a percentage take great pride
in what they have done in the military, especially those who haven't
had to learn first hand the real horrors of war and what it entails.
And I am certain that some wind up in the military by chance or by
means of coercion. I am also quite sure that I have absolutely no idea
which of these or other categories your relatives fall into. I'm
reasonably certain that you don't either.

Robert, all soldiers are paid to commit or to assist in mass
murder. That is a given. You may not believe that killing for a "good
enough" reason is murder, but you would be wrong. An individual
soldier may not believe he commits murder by dropping bombs on a
residential district or any other "designated enemy", but he does
nevertheless. How personally guilty he is, though, is a matter between
himself and God, and no one else is to judge him; not you, not me, not
anyone.



The career of a soldier is an honourable one;

Murder cannot be considered an honourable career in any society that
is sane. Draw your own conclusions from that.



so too is that of one who serves the military in non-combat
roles--such as one who writes code for a DARPA-funded project.

We disagree again. Such people assist in murder, whether they realise
it or not.

Obviously, you will have to learn to deal with the fact that other
people have radically different beliefs and values, and you need to
get used to the fact that in a free society they will speak those
beliefs. Are our societies still free? It's enough to make you wonder,
isn't it?

To summarise,

(murderp (kill soldier person)) => t
(murdererp (every soldier)) => nil
(evil-person-p (every soldier)) => nil
(good-person-p (any soldier)) => t
(honourablep (soldier)) => nil
(honourablep (any (self-image soldier))) => t


Best regards, and happy Lisping,

David



--

David Trudgett
http://www.zeta.org.au/~wpower/

.... it is easy to be blinded to the essential uselessness of them by
the sense of achievement you get from getting them to work at all. In
other words... their fundamental design flaws are completely hidden by
their superficial design flaws.

-- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, on the products
of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation.
.

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