Re: Decreasing the "standard deviation" of lisp

In article <1146204262.383431.6620@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
"Ben Prew" <ben.prew@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I may sound negative to you, but I have seen these discussions
coming and going all the time.

Rainer Joswig wrote:
In article <1146200929.128239.294360@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
"Ben Prew" <ben.prew@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Why should that be the case? Why should Common Lisp suddenly
be the target for script kiddies, instead of developers?

Are you saying that the entire concept of language "standard deviation"
is flawed, or just that it needs some refining?

What standard? What other languages and libraries are popular?
Java and J2EE? C# and .net? Objective-C and Cocoa?
Where is the standard? I can't see one. 'Mainstream'
stuff is also Lingo, AutoLisp, ABAP, ...

I don't remember mentioning anything about "script-kiddies", and I
would argue that most of the mainstream languages availabe now are the
target for developers.

Sure, Java, C, C# are mainstream programming languages and they
are for developers. But who uses Ruby beyond the hype? And
after the hype is gone? More than a few websites and some scripts?

I would also argue that there are some
amazingly intelligent programmers using Ruby, Perl and Java. Why not
make it easier for them to learn lisp as well?

Why should they need to learn Lisp? They would learn Lisp if
it would be (more) useful for them - not because a random
function looks similar.

Lisp is an incredibly beautiful language,

Lisp is neither a language (it is a family of languages) nor beautiful.
If you think of Common Lisp, it is quite ugly in parts (which
I don't have a real problem with).

What other concepts do you feel are getting overlooked? I chose macros
as an example, because from my (limited) experience and from the lisp
people I've talked to, they mention macros as one of the few things
that really can't be done in other languages?

But you don't seem to have any first hand knowledge about it
and you are not looking from a software engineering standpoint?

All kinds of people with LIMITED experience are giving advice
about things they don't have a clue about. I could go to
a PERL newsgroup and giving them the advice to make PERL
more like OpenMCL, since that would attract Lisp developers.
I don't have any clue about PERL and my experience with
PERL is not even 'limited', it is zero. I don't even have any
interest in PERL, since I don't use it. Nobody would care.
Why should I?

I am certainly willing to accept that there are additional useful
concepts that lisp provides, but if you can't get more people to use
the language, then it doesn't really benefit them.

This is all too vague for me...

....

--
http://lispm.dyndns.org/
.

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