Re: Newbie FAQ



p.ebert@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

That said, the online interface between LISP and a newcomer is
appalling. It seems that this has resulted from the community being
dispersed across a number of implementations, open source efforts that
are secondary to commercial implementations, less of an emphasis on
collaborative programming in LISP, most LISP programmers working on
commercial projects and few hobby LISPers. These are my impressions.
They may be incorrect.

They are not, but they are not why Lisp is hard to approach.

What I do know, is that when I go to the Python
site (http://www.python.org/about/gettingstarted/), there is a wealth
of resource material at all levels that is well presented and current.

Pythonistas are not very good programmers, they need that stuff. OK, I will be nice: they, like you, only program as a side activity. (Which is why you all are not so good at programming. There, I feel better.)

In contrast, when I go to one of several LISP sites, the unifying
feature is that they are riddled with dead links and lack materials
that bridge the gap between playing with the language and beginning to
use it as a useful tool.

Yes. Some Assembly Required. Batteries Not Included. Useable Development Environment Left As An Exercise.


I love playing with LISP ...

No, you do not, or you would still be using it. By definition.

...and found David Touretzky's book

Cue Barbara.

to be truly
enlightening. I have tried a number of implementations on my computer
and have found them enjoyable, even from the command line. I find Emacs
to be difficult, to say the least.

Diagnosis confirmed: you are unworthy of Lisp. We put these obstacles up to filter out people who do not get it. There is hope for you since you are just a noob, but salvation will not come in this life. Only if you program seriously for ten years and then in some subsequent life discover a new language called Lisp will you appreciate it enough to overcome the obstacles we erect.

Later we discover you consider Python and Lisp interchangeable. Yikes.

I find useful code packages on the
web, but when I try to use them, I run up against ASDF which still
defeats me.

Bad API, not your fault.

I don't really need personal attention with this, but
rather online resources for newcomers.

No one else had them, what is your problem? Answer: insufficient motivation deived from insufficient appreciation of the value of Lisp derived from insufficient /years/ toiling with lesser languages.

When a critical mass of
newcomers aggregates, we will be help each other and may not need to
request much help from experts.

I'm sorry. Have you read PCL? I did not think so.

The time that I have available to work
on this stuff is limited and fragmented. I am certain that I would
frustrate anyone who tried to walk me through each step to get started.
I have wanted to do my programming with LISP, but ended up using
Python.

Are you also crawling around the campus on your hands and knees because learning to walk was so diabolically hard? Got, fell down, got up, fell down -- forget this!

No, everyone else was walking so you wanted to do the same. As one motivated only by the herd instinct, Python is perfect for you.


So, thank you very much for the effort. There is a real need for
current and accessible online resources. As a newcomer, I rather prefer
to try to work things out for myself if the resources are available.
One thing that is perhaps not needed however, is one more resource if
it ends up being poorly maintained or not widely used.

One last thing is that a few individuals seem to be a bit rude or
arrogant online.

<sob> I'm sorry! Please come back! </sob>

That does intimidate discussion by newcomers.

Newcomers should be listening, not discussing. Questions should be prefaced with prolonged bowing and scraping and general self-flagellation and gifts. I respond well to myrrh. Afterwards, leave the room without turning your back on any of the Lisp gods.

Clearly
stating the appropriate etiquette for asking questions and supplying
useful links to relevant information is neither rude nor intimidating.


Only a troll pretends they do not know Usenet etiquette.

:)

kenny


--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
.

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