Re: Competition is not ALWAYS good

On May 5, 2:02 pm, "Alex Mizrahi" <udode...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
 SB> We have misunderstanding of the view. There is a nice book called
 SB> crossing the chasm, Erick Sink wrote about it athttp://www.ericsink..com/Act_Your_Age.html.
 SB> Paraphrasing the basic idea fallows a short explanation. Basically
 SB> there are 5 types of peoploe in in technology acception.
 SB> Innovators, Early adapters, pragmatists, conservatives & laggards.

you see web framework as a must-use product.
but many [web] applications simply do not need any sophisticated web
frameworks at all -- they can just be built on top of very basic libraries,
e.g. mod_lisp, or even without them.

for example, consider PHP. standard PHP package does not include any
framework -- it just supports integration with Apache, that is roughly
equivalent to mod_lisp.
yet ordinary people (not some uber-cool hackers or innovators) can implement
their applications in bare PHP -- and be quite successful with this.

moreover, ones who use frameworks often end up with over-engineered
solutions and are damn hard to maintain.

of course, if you build application that is very similar to other
applications you've written, it's better to abstract common things, and
create so-called framework.
but often these applications are too different, and abstracting things from
them leads to overly-complex solutions.
And people prefer overly-complex solutions than bare metal things,
Strategy Letter IV: Bloatware and the 80/20 Myth
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000020.html it's people
like YOU who are fluent in the field who like tweak and build with
barebones, the rest of us just wan't get things done. People use php
because there is god damn script for everything, you need a calendar
here it is, credit card page with luhn formula balidator here it is,
connection with mysql embedded ... I tried once php and managed to
without learning much of it make a pretty good site by picking up the
staff on the internet. In lisp I would have to write manually. I
*suspect* that's the way people especially layman build apps in php.
So when I say web app for lisp I expect something that could be done
by GLUING not PROGRAMMING, because I hate to program in things that
doesn't interest me. Once we have a project in php and client
especially that all controls should be prefabricated. And if your
framework (including community and firms) doesn't offer control that
I need I'm not going to write it myself, I'll use another one that has
it, and I don't give a f*ch about managebility, your code needs to
grow a lot in size to become unmanageable. So there is no good enough
web framework for pragmatists in lisp. There is a proven web server,
html generating lib, databings but still no framework FOR THE
PRAGMATISTS. I think cl-weblocks has the best shot to become one but
we shall see.



 ??>> in other words, you have some "religious" preconceptions about
 ??>> different operating systems and Lisp implementations, and you care
 ??>> more about following your preconceptions rather than getting things
 ??>> done in most effective way.

 SB> That you are wrong I like sbcl and use it with Ubuntu.But if expecting
 SB> code to be portable across at least allegro/lw/sbcl and windows/linux
 SB> (I don't have access to Mac) is a religion then yes I am religious.

even religious people have some reasoning behind their beliefs.
No faith is pure when it's unquestioned

but what's your reason to require portability for webapp?
1. I prefer developing on windows and with IDE than on Linux with
Emacs/slime
2. I prefer to keep deployment options open
3. I hate lock ins for single implementation and OS
4. Quality of the code is very often correlated with portability, once
upon a time I made a patch for weblocks under sbcl/linux, testing it
with allegro, lw under both win and linux revealed a lot of low
quality and implementation specific code. So same as I test with opera/
safari/mozilla and ie 6/7 I like to test different oses and
implementations, and it always proved worthy my time leading to better
code and squashing bugs

unlike desktop application, web applications are typically deployed in
controlled fashion -- people pick a server for application and configure it
according to application demands.
so for people who actually want application up and running portability has
very little value.
and it's quite adequate decision to sacrifice portability for, say,
features, or just cut development time on it.

it's another question if you're developing tools rather than application
itself -- tools might be required to play with other tools.

.

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