Re: Python or PHP?

Mike Meyer wrote:

> John Bokma <postmaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
>
>> Mike Meyer wrote:
>>
>>> "Simon John" <simoninusa2001@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
>>>
>>>> I still love Perl, it's a bit of an art form, as "there's more than
>>>> one way to do it", whereas Python usually only allows one way to do
>>>> it, which may or may not be a better mantra....
>>>
>>> The Python mantra leads to 1) less programmer overhead, and 2)
faster
>>> improvements in the language.
>>>
>>> To be a Perl expert, you have to know which of the many ways to do
>>> various things is the fasted under what conditions.
>>
>> Why?
>
> One of the stated conditions for more than one Perl position I've
> looked at.

That's weird, since some can differ between versions of Perl like for
example a map in a void context. And I am sure Python has now and then
improvements which make one operation suddenly 10% faster in a new
version.

So it tells you a lot about the people providing the position ;-)

>>> Having only one obvious way
>> I doubt that too ;-)
>
> Try programming in older Python for a while. You'll quit doubting it.

Again I doubt that. I doubt that if I give 100 old Python programmers a
certain computer science problem I will see 100 exactly the same
solutions, which when benchmarked run equally fast.

>>> to do things means developers only have to
>>> worry about impact on that way when making improvements, which will
>>> speed them up.
>> Yeah, Perl programmers are extremely slow ;-)
>
> Nah, they aren't slow. They just have to worry about more things than
> the Python developers.

Do you have references to this? I would love to see if indeed 100 Python
programmers do implement, say 5 CS tasks faster compared to 100 Perl
programmers, on average.

>> In most cases, why worry? If speed is an issue you should probably
have
>> picked a different programming language in the first place (for that
>> part of the code).
>
> You apparently haven't been programming in Python very long.

Nope. I think I copied 3 examples and had a peek at it. I did read the
tutorial (twice) and am rereading Dive into Python.

> If speed
> is an issue, you should probably pick a different
> algorithm. Well-written Python programs use the C-coded parts of
> Python for the time-critical part of the code.

Why are those time critical parts not written in Python ;-)

>> Use the one that is the easiest to read and understand by yourself.
>> That's how I program Perl, and that's how I am going to program
Python.
>
> The thing is, in Python there usually is one obvious way to do
> things. That's changed in recent years as improvements have been added
> without dropping the features they replaced so as not to break old
> programs.

I know to little about Python, especially about old Python, to have an
idea of what you mean. I only saw, quite recently, someones solution to
a problem that used 30 lines of Python, and I am sure I could have
written it in 3-4. And I doubt that's because he was using, or I was
thinking in, new Python
:-D.

>> An overloaded toolbox doesn't mean that if you have to hang a
painting
>> on the wall that you have to think for 6 hours which tool you should
>> use. You just take the one that does the job in a way you feel
>> comfortable with. I know that the Perl mantra is often misunderstood,
>> but in my experience only by people who have very little experience
with
>> the language.
>
> The problem with using "the way you feel comfortable with" is that it
> may not be comfortable for the maintainer - even if that's you six
> months from now.

After 5 years one gets comfortable with most constructions in a
language. I am more often uncomfortable with the way someone translates
a problem into code. And there is no way how you can force people with a
language that is, to do that the same, not even close.

> My Perl evolved from very shell script like (lots of
> backticks and passing around the full text of files)

I am sure you can do that with Python too.

> to one more
> C-like as I used the language. That change was largely driven by
> performance concerns as my understanding of the language grew.

Yup, in Perl one should program Perl, not bash, not C. Same for Python.

--
John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/
personal page: http://johnbokma.com/
Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Forth and Unix -- history
    ... Forth, as a language, gives you all the building blocks. ... So does FORTRAN, so does C, so does PERL, so does Python. ... to interface to some free library written in whatever language. ...
    (comp.lang.forth)
  • Recommend an E-book Meeting the Following Criteria (Newbie, Long)
    ... I know several programming languages namely Java, Perl and C in this order ... Now I'm wondering which Python book I should get as there are so many out ... I'd like to mostly concentrate on language features but some pointers ...
    (comp.lang.python)
  • Re: Python or PHP?
    ... If it's one of the things for which Python ... every language here and there more ways to do something. ... you make Perl more complicated than it is:-D. ... Not the programmer. ...
    (comp.lang.python)
  • Re: Resources for education (was Re: Operating systems at war?)
    ... programming in a language in which structure is a requirement can be ... What is wrong with Python? ... advanced programming techniques like object oriented programming it is ... To learn Python basics is only a matter of days ...
    (comp.sys.acorn.advocacy)
  • Re: map/filter/reduce/lambda opinions and background unscientific mini-survey
    ... > Python language, while "function" etc are not, but they are certainly ... But in the Python sense? ... The programming use is probably *closer* to the English meaning ...
    (comp.lang.python)